Hare Krishna, ISKCON being a multi guru association we have multi guru opinion and conclusions.
ASA - Yes. The Six Goswami's would meet and discuss philosophy, strategy, no?
Some say the initiation must be done by a liberated soul, because only a liberated soul can take you back to Godhead. So who is doing the actual guidance? Srila Prabhupada or mantra guru is initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada?
ASA - From what I have heard, Prabhupada's comment was that taking iniation formally, and receiving instruction formally or informally from him directly of from his disciple was both fully potent. The candidate, by the mercy of God and his own effort, has to do the work of seeing if the disciple-guru is bona fide. Not to any great level. Just to a practical level for the current level of work. Eg. is this disciple qualified to teach me how to put on Tilak at this beginning level. O.K.??
And regarding the initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada this guru is all for it absorbing the RITVIKS!
ASA - What does "absorbing the RITVIKS" mean???! Sounds a little sinister?? https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fm.media-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FM%2FMV5BYzI4NmVhNmItYzAzNC00ZTJmLWExMjAtMjBjN2VjYWVmMDQwXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzAxNjg3MjQ%40._V1_UY268_CR5%2C0%2C182%2C268_AL_.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Ftitle%2Ftt0063350%2F&docid=2VHr1sTf-EsPEM&tbnid=etfcCak0NsE4KM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj4g4bLiIbmAhUOIrkGHTfPDWMQMwhhKAEwAQ..i&w=182&h=268&bih=713&biw=1235&q=the%20night%20of%20the%20living%20dead&ved=0ahUKEwj4g4bLiIbmAhUOIrkGHTfPDWMQMwhhKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
Punjabi Warrior - https://youtu.be/-bpdoMqzRAk
ASA - We started the video but is too slow for us. Can you just summarize in twenty words or less??
What is the diksa monkey gurus HPS opinion OR UNDERSTANDING? Is he taking disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and just acting as Siksa? Or HPS is a liberated soul and taking disciples as his disciples?
ASA - We answered in the Guru tattva link. We are basically basing our Guru tattva on NOI. At the end of Text Five, "In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises..." we understand that things can go on just as when Srila Prabhupada was here. In one letter I remember that is exactly what he suggested. We don't present ourselves as being any more liberated or qualified than Madhyama adhikari, second class devotee, so we give advice, Siksa, and perform the rituals, and accept disciples from that platform. We only accept people as disciples if they have personally accept Srila Prabhupada as an Uttama adhikari Guru.
As we know the history it was hard to get the beads to Srila Prabhupada while he was traveling so he authorized Jayatirtha, Brahmananda, Bhagavan et al to chant on the beads and Nitai or others were chosing the names often and recommendation from Temple President was enough for Prabhupada to accept someone as a disciple.
As far as I know Jayathirtha chanted on my beads, Bhakta Das recommended me for first initiation and Nita Das chose my name. Whose disciple am I. Ha! Ha! Ha Ray!!
Here are some videos of Sankirtan in Yuba City California where I try to distribute Srila Prabhupadas books to Punjabi’s and Muslims.
ASA - Really cool!!!! Photo of your self? Our fotos attached. Inside and out. Search for "Godbrother" on vedabase.io gives lot of nice instructions! Very nice videos!!!
And if I call a rubber stamped guru bogus because of having to sign a gag order of the GBC IS ok..🙏🏾
Did HPS sign a gag order that can be used against his guru license and can be suspended anytime?
HpS - ASA --- Hare Krsna. AGTSP.... Esteemed Sac Singh. Can we know a little more about you? Your questions seem to cover a lot of ground to give very specific answers.
Did you read our explanation of what is understanding of how we are giving initiation? It is at http://www.jayarama.us/kd/guru-tattva.txt . It is based on the NOI but I think it is quite complete enough for practical purposes.
I don't have the connection to look at the videos!!
We have met in Sacramento and Berkeley. Currently I am studying the Iskcon Guru's business system of initiations which are confusing as hell, because each guru has a different understanding and the GBC police is making GURU's sign gag orders and they can suspend an ISKCON guru licence and ban, so the rubber stamped ISKCON GURUS are under the subjection of the GBC and not free to speak or act against a system which is not proper.
ASA - I didn't have to sign and "gag order" that I know of? I explain things as I understand them here and get some reactions, but not threat of annhiliation. For sure Krsna ksetra Das and I have similar ideas. With Jayapataka Swami of course we have variety but I personally asked him in class about six years ago if one had to be an Acharya with a BIG "A" to be a Guru in ISKCON and he said, no? The big A was Krsna's perogative.
After reading that guru tattva page. It seems two people are initiating. One is HPS and the other is Srila Prabhupada? So Srila Prabhupada is taking the initiate back to Godhead according to the article on this website! If Srila Prabhupada is taking HPS and HPS's disciples back to Godhead, it would mean HPS is unqualified to take you back to Godhead!
HpS - Reading and reading and then discussing with Harvard Oxford Scholars, Hrdayananda Goswami and Radhika-ramana Das they said the same thing that I concluded. We are not a ritualistic Sampradaya, Diksa Sampradaya. Our line passes through Siksa. So, I take that I am a Diksa guru because I "initiate according to the regulations of the śāstras", CC Madhya 8.128, and this is done under a system accepted by Srila Prabhupada. As long as a Madhyama Adhikari guru is following an Uttama Adhikari guru. we can follow him, no? Get Srila Prabhupada from his books, paramatma, other disciples etc!!!!
Why even bother with HPS formal initiation, why not take shelter of Srila Prabhupada directly ? Why doesn't HPS give initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and say you take Srila Prabhupada as your guru because he is taking you back to Godhead, I HPS am just doing a formal duty to connect you to the Acharya.
HpS - We have explained our ideas on this above. Why not boy and girl just exchange garlands, and accept they are married? Seems O.K. in some situations.
This doesn't make sense..the initiating GURU (HPS) is not fit to take you back to godhead but he is initiating and saying Srila Prabhupada is going to take you back to Godhead.
HpS - Rather seems quite clear to me and hope the same to those who I am initiating. Just as Bhakta Das did the ceremony and recommended me and Jayatirtha Chanted on my beads. Krsna is God. Srila Prabhupada is our Guru as Founder Acharya and from those two perspectives we can have practical understanding how others in ISKCON represent Srila Prabhupada. You are working as Siksa guru in the videos. Why not just put the books there and walk away. (Pretty fiendish argument, no?)
IF HPS acts as siksa guru and sets an ideal example and you take a vow to chant Hare Krishna - 16 rounds and regulative principles, you don't need HPS but HPS can act as Siksa or a conduit of connection to Srila Prabhupada the Acharya.
HpS ._. Answered above, no? We are not opposed to people having as much direct relationship as they can with Srila Prabhupada. We are just trying to act as one channel. If that involves be a link in the formality of initiation. O.K. If that involves explaining the books O.K. but our only desire is to just be a transparent via media to Srila Prabhupad and Krsna.
Right now I am reading Srila Prabhupada's dialectic spiritualism, an awesome read where he defeats bogus western systems of thinking etc.
HpS - We base like 90% of our current preaching on his las comment on Carl Jung. We are finding a really vibrant community to approach for communication Rupa Siksa.
Our "first disciple", Raktaka Das, was from Fazilka, District Ferozpur. We, he, had a very clear, practical understanding or our relationship with each other, other ISKCON devotees Guru nanak and Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you for your time. Has been very nice conversation. Maybe if we go anyfurther we can reset the history and just start with new questions and answers.