JIVA TATTVA LETTERS
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">Hare Krsna Gurumaharaja,
Please accept my humble obeisances...all glories to Srila Prabhupada!!! gaura bhakta Vrinda ki jay!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am writing this email to ask a few questions and tll you some things to you. Sorry about the length! :(
1- I have been talking to a devotee, his name is Vasudeva das, now he is a disciple of Narayan Maharaja. Vasudeva prabhu told me about some conversations he had with you when he was a brahmacari, and he wanted to read Sridhar Maharaja/ Narayan maharaja's books. He sends his obeisances to you!! he told me that the talks had been about jiva tattva, fall from vaikhunta et al...and I have some doubts about that...what should I do/read? Any how, my focus now is on my japa vrata, deities and serving devotees...but this question is in my heart.
HpS - AGTSP pamho. We have an Index with citations from Prabhupada about these things. We just dowloaded it from:
jayarama.us/archives/abc-ndx.doc
Specifically there is the Topic - "Origin of jiva". We have included the citations below and the citations from our Bhakti-vaibhava Index of the First Six Canto.
Basically, the comments by Srila Prabhupada seem to be a little equivocal as we remember. However, it seems to be a politicaly motivated topic. With the focus being that we don't have to accept Srila Prabhupada as a perfect authority, and related in some ways, that we don't have to accept the GBC or ISKCON as a perfect authority. More extreme is, "My Guru knows more than your Guru". "Srila Prabhupada didn't teach you, know, everything".
As a sincere question we see that Srila Prabhupada comments that the real concern is not how we got here but how we are going to get out.
I have seen the copy of one letter where Prabhupada commented that whever we were originally Sayujya-mukti (liberated in the Brahman) or Sarupya-mukti (liberated in Vaikuntha or Goloka), now we are neither one, and our first priority is again become liberated and then we can easily understand our origen.
Of course, understanding the origen of our present position has some value in correcting it!
Also, there is the problem that we cannot actually talk of the "Origen of the Jiva's Position", besause the Jiva is Sat, eternal, what to speak of Cit and Ananda. Therefore there is no time factor on the spiritual plane of one event after another as we know it, so all of this is like analogy for children.
Basically, as far as I understand now, we always have free-will. We can leave Krsna from any postion. There are othe citations under the Topic of Free Will about this. The citation we especially remember is from the Fifth Canto where it mentions that he "Fell Down" from the platform of Bhava. In the Purport Srila Prabhupada clearly empasizes that we cannot have an accidental falldown from the platform of Bhava, that MB's "Fall Down" was a conscious choice. If there is no conscious choice, then there is no love.
We are not forced to serve Krsna in Vaikuntha by fear or pleasure, like some kind of Heroine addicts.
Realizing this causes fear (BG 4.10)
Srila Prabhupada also discusses this in the end of NOI 7 with the citation of the CC verse, "krsna surya sama, maya haya..."
We become afraid to understand that we have free will and we will not be "forced" to stay with Krsna and enjoy. Again, the basic idea is that we want Mukti, not Bhakti.
O.K?
But, the Prayers by the Personfied Vedas in the KRSNA book start with glorifying Krsna for His foremost quality, His mercy on the conditioned souls. Thus the essence of Justice is not Satya, Truth, it is Daya, Mercy. There is a whole, I think, Puranic story about this with Maharaja Hariscandra. As I remember he starts with this idea is that Truth is the essence of Justice, but in the end arrives at the conclusion that Mercy is the essence. The Catholic church believes the same thing.
The conclusion, then is that we could have chosen to come here but Krsna in the form of Srimati Radharani is so kind that He will find some way to get us out of this problem, even though we don't deserve it.
One last point is that there is the argument that there is a citation that Srila Bhaktivinode mentions that we fall down from the association of Mahavisnu. I would very much like to see the citation if you can get it. However, immediately there are two points. First is that it may be from a source, such as Jaiva-dharma, which has no commentary from our Acharya, Srila Prabhupada, so it is difficult to assess it's value. For example, I remember various citations in CC where Srila Prabhupada comments that various works by our Acharya's were adjusted according to the circumstance and that they were not intende for as truth in all circumstances. I don't find a citation for that under Epistemology in our Index. We are still building it.
We have to understand the previous Acharyas through our Acharya. By following Srila Prabhupada I have directly seen Radha Gokulananda beyond my mind and senses so I accept what he says as coming from beyond the mind and senses.
Second, even if the citation says that we fall down from a position near the material energy and Maha-visnu, this does not invalidate that our original position might have been in Goloka. First we became slack in our devotion and then we went to Ayodhaya. From there we may have returned to Goloka bhava or have progressively gone to lower and lower levels of consciousness until we finally entered external energy consciousness.
So, this is our understanding at the present. The citations give some interesting reading.
Maybe you can edit them into a systematic order by topic.
If anybody asks us this question again we will refer them to you. BG 4.34 purport warns us that blind faith and absurd enquiery are condemned.
Also, thank you so much because we will use this for one of our essays for our Bhakti-vaibhava paper! Here follow the citations:
Origin of the Jiva
engaging in devotional service saves one from danger of fall down, SB 1.5.17-19 and SB 1.20.22
even advanced devotees like Bharata Maharaj can fall down, SB 5.8.7
fall down occurs when the jiva desires to lord it over matter, SB 6.1.55
jivas who fall from spiritual world have to accept material bodies, SB 4.20.37 p
no maya in Vaikuntha SB 4.6.32
original position revealed or svarupa-siddhi, SB 9.19.25 p
start of material fall down, one begins in position of Brahma, SB 9.24.58 p
Bhakti-vaibhava Citations
Only fall down for Vaisnava aparadha and Krsna's desire (lila)', but these are surrendered souls. SB 5.1.5
Free will = M.Bharta was not suffering accidental falldown, reaction of past Karma, he intentionally gave up devotional service to worship the deer. 5.8.26
There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this, SB 2.9.1
always chance to go to Maya, big dev. suddenly change, SB3.26.23-24 5*
why this material world was created for the suffering of the conditioned souls is a very intricate question, SB3.26.5
"Everyone is at liberty to desire as he likes, but the desire is fulfilled by the Supreme Lord. Everyone is independent to think or
desire..." SB 3.4.11
"Some of the jivas, however, wanted to lord it over material nature in imitation of the lordship of the Personality of Godhead. Regarding when and why such propensities overcame the pure living entities, it can only be explained that the jiva-tattvas have infinitesimal independence and that due to misuse of this independence some of the living entities have become implicated in the conditions of cosmic creation and are therefore called nitya-baddhas, or eternally conditioned souls." SB3.5.51
Sense gratif in Vaikuntha but rejected. SB3.15.17
Origin of the Jiva, SB3.25.29
2- Gustavo asked me a question: can a disciple disagree with his/her diksa guru in a philosophical point? I believe that guruji reveals deeper and more confidencial philosophical/ bhakti aspects according to the disciple's qualification... (?)
HpS - Seems like two different topics. Narada Muni was going to be Diksa guru for Dhurva Maharaja, but Dhruva rejected his instruction: SB 4.8.27, NOI first purport Srila Prabhupada cites the example of M. Pariksit rejecting Sukadeva Goswami's advice.
If there are disagreements they should be dealt with with proper etiquette. If he is a Madhyama Adhikari the diksa guru will tell us this and be happy to hear suggestions for corrections from anyone, even his disciple, who is citing from their mutual Acharya.
Thank you very much gurudeva!!!
see you soon!!
your aspiring servant
visnupriya devi dasi
</td></tr></tbody></table>HpS - Is O.K. Long answers but we feel useful! Actually would have been better to ask them in the KDh Blog so that all could see the answers!!! Jaya! Adelante! You all can do more service than Srila Prabhupada by his and Lord Nityananda's mercy! Do it!!
Haribol Gurudeva..pamho..agtsp!! gaura bhakta vrinda ki jay!!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the complete answers!!! I have 2 last questions: 1- does this mean that when we (nitya badhas) eventually get prema, and attain Gokula, have a siddha deha, etc, still there's a possibility to come back?
HpS - AGTSP pamho. From what I have understood and heard we always have free will so we can always move to any part of Krsna's cosmos: Goloka, Mathura, Ayodhya, Vaikuntha, Siva loka, Devi dhama, Brahmaloka, Buenos Aires.
We don't get Krsna prema, we just reawaken it. We already have, are, a Siddha-deha.
2- If Nitya siddhas descend here, does that mean that they are conscious of the material world?
HpS - Again from what I have heard and undestand, Prabhupada said that Arjuna temporarily forgot Krsna for Krsna's service, but he never ceased to love Krsna.
THANK you again!!
at your feet!!
ps: I can post these things on the blog!!!
HpS - Yes! You can see that it is much better use of our time, you, me and gustavo and Ramananda ... if we answer you fine questions on the blog.
your aspiring servant