Origin of the Jiva - Gustavo

9 years, 6 months ago by hps

Hare Krsna, Prabhus!           AgtSP       Paoho.      Tom Brown, MONKEY, here.    First a correction to the CC link. Should be http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/10/65/en

Then we have nice letter from Gustavo: 

Maharaja! All glories to Srila Prabhupad and all Vaishnavas!
Well, it´s  so difficult to me, I can´t accept this point about the free will inclouding in the lilas..., but...I am a baddha jiva, I can´t understand or realize this topics so well. I think that the realy important thing is learning to serve to Lord Krishna and all devotees!
My work is very hard and I couldn´t go to the temple. So I hope you´ll be allright! Nice Journey!
 Maharaj, thanks for your answers!
I´m gonna write to you more frecuently!

HpS - Yes, I looked at CC Adi Chapter Four and could not find anything that directly explains that because of our free will we can chose to serve Krsna in Ayodhya rather than Goloka. We are editing the Index citations we extracted from our Bhakti vaibhava readings on Origen of the Jiva right now. There were some good citations there.

They are mentioned in the first letter on this topic to Visnu-priya devi das.

Again, if anyone has the citation from Bhaktivinode Thakura about the Jiva coming from the "Tatasta sakti" we would like to see it.

It's O.K. with me if people have different ideas about these things. The only general principle seems to be that we are not forced to serve in Goloka, Ayidha, Vaikuntha or Devi dhama by the pleasure that receive form that, but rather it is a decision that is so fast, and so personal that nothing, not even Krsna, nor all the Gopis can touch, and that free-will that we have (from Krsna and the Gopis) is what makes us completely attractive to the All Attractive.



Origin of the Jiva citation

9 years, 6 months ago by hps


paoho.  In our regular reading we found this excellent citation on the origin of the Jiva.

CC 2.10.65

Ur servants, Hanumatpresaka Swami ASA

Pleace I would like to have your dairy...

9 years, 6 months ago

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Pleace acept my humble obedience at your lotus feet

Thank you for taking me to Krishna lotus feet and back to godgead

Hare Krishna Guru maharaja, We are doing all the preparations to install S.Prabhupadas murti in Mar del Plata and doin sankirtan day long..MdP is full of turists and many programs of preaching are coming to us by  the mercy of Krishna and his devotis...

I would like to recieve your dairy, if it´s posible and if you think I realy deserv it.....,Thank you very much for your visit to MdP it was very entusistic and let me see many work I have to do to try to serve you and purify my hart from all material desires....

Your eternal servant

Panca tattva das  

HpS - AGTSP   pamho.  It was a great honor for us to be in Mar de Plata and try to participate in the progams. Piggy has some of the photos in his next Diary.

Monkey has put your name in the Calendar for March when he plans to publish and will ask you for an appropriate address then.

Please, please send us news from Mar.     Nicasio is here in BsAs for these days.    Please offer our respects to Maha-jana.  Get up early! 



9 years, 6 months ago by visnupriyadd
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">Hare Krsna Gurumaharaja, 
Please accept my humble obeisances...all glories to Srila Prabhupada!!! gaura bhakta Vrinda ki jay!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am writing this email to ask a few questions and tll you some things to you. Sorry about the length! :(
1- I have been talking to a devotee, his name is Vasudeva das, now he is a disciple of Narayan Maharaja. Vasudeva prabhu told me about some conversations he had with you when he was a brahmacari, and he wanted to read Sridhar Maharaja/ Narayan maharaja's books. He sends his obeisances to you!! he told me that the talks had been about jiva tattva, fall from vaikhunta et al...and I have some doubts about that...what should I do/read? Any how, my focus now is on my japa vrata, deities and serving devotees...but this question is in my heart.
HpS -  AGTSP  pamho.  We have an Index with citations from Prabhupada about these things. We just dowloaded it from:
Specifically there is the Topic - "Origin of jiva". We have included the citations below  and the citations from our Bhakti-vaibhava Index of the First Six Canto.
Basically, the comments by Srila Prabhupada seem to be a little equivocal as we remember. However, it seems to be a politicaly motivated topic. With the focus being that we don't have to accept Srila Prabhupada as a perfect authority, and related in some ways, that we don't have to  accept the GBC or ISKCON as a perfect authority. More extreme is, "My Guru knows more than your Guru".  "Srila Prabhupada didn't teach you, know, everything".
As a sincere question we see that Srila Prabhupada comments that the real concern is not how we got here but how we are going to get out.
I have seen the copy of one letter where Prabhupada commented that whever we were originally Sayujya-mukti (liberated in the Brahman) or Sarupya-mukti (liberated in Vaikuntha or Goloka), now we are neither one, and our first priority is again become liberated and then we can easily understand our origen.
Of course, understanding the origen of our present position has some value in correcting it!
Also, there is the problem that we cannot actually talk of the "Origen of the Jiva's Position", besause the Jiva is Sat, eternal, what to speak of Cit and Ananda.  Therefore there is no time factor on the spiritual plane of one event after another as we know it, so all of this is like analogy for children.
Basically, as far as I understand now, we always have free-will. We can leave Krsna from any postion. There are othe citations under the Topic of Free Will about this. The citation we especially remember is from the Fifth Canto where it mentions that he "Fell Down" from the platform of Bhava. In the Purport Srila Prabhupada clearly empasizes that we cannot have an accidental falldown from the platform of Bhava, that MB's "Fall Down" was a conscious choice.  If there is no conscious choice, then there is no love.
We are not forced to serve Krsna in Vaikuntha by fear or pleasure, like some kind of Heroine addicts.
Realizing this causes fear (BG 4.10)
Srila Prabhupada also discusses this in the end of NOI 7 with the citation of the CC verse, "krsna surya sama, maya haya..."
We become afraid to understand that we have free will and we will not be "forced" to stay with Krsna and enjoy.  Again, the basic idea is that we want Mukti, not Bhakti.
But, the Prayers by the Personfied Vedas in the KRSNA book start with glorifying Krsna for His foremost quality, His mercy on the conditioned souls. Thus the essence of Justice is not Satya, Truth, it is Daya, Mercy.  There is a whole, I think, Puranic story about this with Maharaja Hariscandra. As I remember he starts with this idea is that Truth is the essence of Justice, but in the end arrives at the conclusion that Mercy is the essence. The Catholic church believes the same thing.
The conclusion, then is that we could have chosen to come here but Krsna in the form of Srimati Radharani is so kind that He will find some way to get us out of this problem, even though we don't deserve it.
One last point is that there is the argument that there is a citation that Srila Bhaktivinode mentions that we fall down from the association of Mahavisnu.  I would very much like to see the citation if you can get it. However, immediately there are two points. First is that it may be from a source, such as Jaiva-dharma, which has no commentary from our Acharya, Srila Prabhupada, so it is difficult to assess it's value.  For example, I remember various citations in CC where Srila Prabhupada comments that various works by our Acharya's were adjusted according to the circumstance and that they were not intende for as truth in all circumstances. I don't find a citation for that under Epistemology in our Index.  We are still building it.
We have to understand the previous Acharyas through our Acharya. By following Srila Prabhupada I have directly seen Radha Gokulananda beyond my mind and senses so I accept what he says as coming from beyond the mind and senses.
Second, even if the citation says that we fall down from a position near the material energy and Maha-visnu, this does not invalidate that our original position might have been in Goloka. First we became slack in our devotion and then we went to Ayodhaya. From there we may have returned to Goloka bhava or have progressively gone to lower and lower levels of consciousness until we finally entered external energy consciousness.
So, this is our understanding at the present. The citations give some interesting reading.
Maybe you can edit them into a systematic order by topic.
If anybody asks us this question again we will refer them to you. BG 4.34 purport warns us that blind faith and absurd enquiery are condemned.
Also, thank you so much because we will use this for one of our essays for our Bhakti-vaibhava paper! Here follow the citations:
Origin of the Jiva

engaging in devotional service saves one from danger of fall down, SB 1.5.17-19 and SB 1.20.22


even advanced devotees like Bharata Maharaj can fall down, SB 5.8.7

fall down occurs when the jiva desires to lord it over matter, SB 6.1.55

jivas who fall from spiritual world have to accept material bodies, SB 4.20.37 p

no maya in Vaikuntha SB 4.6.32

original position revealed or svarupa-siddhi, SB 9.19.25 p

start of material fall down, one begins in position of Brahma, SB 9.24.58 p


Bhakti-vaibhava Citations

Only fall down for Vaisnava aparadha and Krsna's desire (lila)', but these are surrendered souls. SB 5.1.5

Free will = M.Bharta was not suffering accidental falldown, reaction of past Karma, he intentionally gave up devotional service to worship the deer. 5.8.26

There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this, SB 2.9.1

always chance to go to Maya, big dev. suddenly change, SB3.26.23-24 5*

why this material world was created for the suffering of the conditioned souls is a very intricate question, SB3.26.5

"Everyone is at liberty to desire as he likes, but the desire is fulfilled by the Supreme Lord. Everyone is independent to think or

desire..." SB 3.4.11

"Some of the jivas, however, wanted to lord it over material nature in imitation of the lordship of the Personality of Godhead. Regarding when and why such propensities overcame the pure living entities, it can only be explained that the jiva-tattvas have infinitesimal independence and that due to misuse of this independence some of the living entities have become implicated in the conditions of cosmic creation and are therefore called nitya-baddhas, or eternally conditioned souls." SB3.5.51

Sense gratif in Vaikuntha but rejected. SB3.15.17

Origin of the Jiva, SB3.25.29


2- Gustavo asked me a question: can a disciple disagree with his/her diksa guru in a philosophical point? I believe that guruji reveals deeper and more confidencial philosophical/ bhakti aspects according to the disciple's qualification... (?)
HpS - Seems like two different topics.  Narada Muni was going to be Diksa guru for Dhurva Maharaja, but Dhruva rejected his instruction: SB 4.8.27, NOI first purport Srila Prabhupada cites the example of M. Pariksit rejecting Sukadeva Goswami's advice.
If there are disagreements they should be dealt with with proper etiquette.  If he is a Madhyama Adhikari the diksa guru will tell us this and be happy to hear suggestions for corrections from anyone, even his disciple, who is citing from their mutual Acharya.
Thank you very much gurudeva!!!
see you soon!!
your aspiring servant
visnupriya devi dasi
HpS - Is O.K.  Long answers but we feel useful!   Actually would have been better to ask them in the KDh Blog so that all could see the answers!!!   Jaya!   Adelante!     You all can do more service than Srila Prabhupada by his and Lord Nityananda's mercy!    Do it!! 
Haribol Gurudeva..pamho..agtsp!! gaura bhakta vrinda ki jay!!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the complete answers!!! I have 2 last questions: 1- does this mean that when we (nitya badhas) eventually get prema, and attain Gokula, have a siddha deha, etc, still there's a possibility to come back? 
HpS - AGTSP   pamho.   From what I have understood and heard we always have free will so we can always move to any part of Krsna's cosmos: Goloka, Mathura, Ayodhya, Vaikuntha, Siva loka, Devi dhama, Brahmaloka, Buenos Aires.
We don't get Krsna prema, we just reawaken it.  We already have, are, a Siddha-deha.
2- If Nitya siddhas descend here, does that mean that they are conscious of the material world?
HpS - Again from what I have heard and undestand, Prabhupada said that Arjuna temporarily forgot Krsna for Krsna's service, but he never ceased to love Krsna.
THANK you again!!
at your feet!!
ps: I can post these things on the blog!!!
HpS -  Yes!    You can see that it is much better use of our time, you, me and gustavo and Ramananda ...  if we answer you fine questions on the blog.
your aspiring servant


B.Natalia, Peru

9 years, 6 months ago

Hare Krsna Maharaja
Please accept my humble obeisances
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Can I have one of Monkey's journal? (my adress is: av.28 de julio 1276, Miraflores. Lima 18, Peru).
HpS - AGTSP!    paoho.  Monkey put your name on the list and in March he will contact you for a good address!

Why I deserve one? I don't know... I wish to read what you are writting, in order to understand better who are you, I belive that throught you I can understand lots about Prabhupada and Krsna. I am trying to serve you in some little way, chanting good rounds in the morning, listening attentively the Bhagavatam class, trying to cooperate in some practical services like sattva and some book distribution, and trying as much as my mind allows me to be a good person and avoid offenses.
HpS -We must have been engaged in devotional service in a previous life. You have been able to take up so much. Make it perfect in this life. How is Gopa-kumar Das?  

This month is so special, we are staying in Shell (Prabhu Puspa Gopa, Prabhu Abhirama, Prabhu Rupa, M. Yugala Kisor, b.Maria and me), the association is wonderful!!! I was tolerating to be at home many months, and this is like nectar! We are going to the buses, talking a little about the books, and many people are accepting to take the Prabhupada's books easily. The mind is always confused about our position, but there is so much help from devotees, book and programs, that the sickness is better controlled.

Gurudeva, we had a nice idea!! It may be posible to rent an appartment with m.Yuagala Kisor and b.Maria. We can live togheter this coming year, practice sadhana, keep enthusiasm for book distribution, I will continue with my studies. My father agrees! So we need to find some appropiate place. In this way it seems it can be a great year! And then the next year (2012) I can go to Australia.

HpS - Your mother can join you.  Haw!   Haw!    She can be a Brahmacari also.  Then your father can organize the trip for all of us to go to India.  Ho!   Ho! 

I don't want to take more of your valuable time!
Thank you very much for your inspiration, it engage me in Krsna's service with better intelligence!

Hare Krsna,
your aspirant servant, b.Natalia
HpS -Thank you.  We see you in just a few days!  Our respects to Mother Mary and Mother Yugala! 


9 years, 6 months ago by PABLOPARIKRAMA

Pamho, tlgaSP.

I hope you are in the best of conditions, both spiritual and material.

Happy Vyasapuja, I envy yours spiritual children, it is a pity that I am not a person more capable.

I am Bhakta Pablo from Parikrama, from spain, the father of Varuna. Your stupid dog.

I just wanted to express that I am still fighting with myself, sometimes, i think, between

life and death, and I was moved and touched by the appoinment of Our Lord Jesus Christ

in the KD, very beautiful. Thanks.

Please, I know I am not anyone involved, but for me it would be a great honor to have a copy of your

journal. A great honor to me, both for yourself and for your work and friendship with The BIggest, Krsna.

If i deserve it for something, I think, that is for be stupid and in need of Prasadam...and for knowing you.

I will try not for disappoint you, Hanumatpresaka Swami.

At your feet.

P.D: Let me bring you a poem, just to try to give youself a birthday gift...based on a song that really like to you.


Canciones,                                 Songs,

palmadas,                                 pat,

risas                                           laughter

con carcajadas.                        with laughters.

Felicidad                                    Happiness

eterna,                                        eternal,

entre la niebla,                         between the fog,

las surabhi                                the Surabhi

pastan.                                       graze.

Jaya Radhe,                              Jaya Radhe,

Jaya Krsna,                              Jaya Krsna,

Jaya Vrndavana.                      Jaya Vrndavana.

Que Sus formas                      That Their shapes

eternas,                                   eternal,

siempre,                                  always,

en estos pastos                     in these pastures

de Vrndavana,                      of Vrndavana,

me permitan,                         allow me,

ser,                                           be,

siempre,                                  always,

un insignificante atomo,     an insignificant atom,

entre tantos diamantes.      among many diamonds.

Jaya Radhe                           Jaye Radhe

Jaya Krsna                            Jaya Krsna

Jaya Vrndavana.                  Jaya Vrndavana.

Vivan Sus Loros,                   Jaya Their Parrots,

y los Lilas                               and the Lilas

que van a contar.                  that they will receive.

Jaya Radhe                           Jaya Radhe

Jaya Gopis                            Jaya Gopis

Jaya Gopas,                         Jaya Gopas,

y el hermoso,                      and the beautiful,

bello y valeroso                 nice and gallant

Syama Sun dara.               Syama Sun dara.

Ahi de mi,                         Oh myself

ahi de mi alma,                 oh my soul,

ahi de mi futuro.            oh my future.

Este tonto, tonto, tonto,      That fool, fool, fool,

ser,                                    being,

sabe que hacer,               know what to do,

y que ver,                        and what see,

para                                 for

ser,                                  be,

un verdadero alma.      a true soul.

Jaya Radhe                   Jaya Radhe

Jaya Krsna                   Jaya Krsna

Jaya Vrndavana,         Jaya Vrndavana,

y si mi alma,                and if my soul,

fluctua                         fluctuate

en Sus deseos,            in Her desires,

que un toro me aste,          that one bull splinter me,

un rayo me parta                one beam broke me

y un torbellino me esparza...        and one whirlwind throw me...

pero                                          but

yo,                                              I,

pido por favor,                        ask please,

que sea por                                that be in

VRNADAVANA,                        VRNDAVANA,

el Hogar                                     the Home

de la Pareja Divina,                 of the Divine Couple,

SRI-SRI- RADHA-GOPINATHA.                                     SRI-SRI- RADHA-GOPINATHA.

Amor, Amor, Amor,                                                          Love, Love, Love,

por favor, por favor, por favor.                                    please, please, please. 

 HpS - Jaya!  Thank you so much.   I think we are together forever on the Vraja mandala parikrama.

The key point is to fix some amount of rounds for some time and then do them.  For example, I will chant four roudns a day for one week. Something that you know you can do, and then defeat your mind.  If it was too much then fix a new vow.

I think with your effort you will be successful in everything. It just takes time and fighting.

I hope we see you in Spain in a few weeks!