Dear Guru Maharaja, please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Krsna the all attractive is Bhagavan, one who is full in six opulences, who has full strength, full fame, wealth, knowledge, beauty and renunciation. Jiva, a spirit soul, atma is a part and particle of Krsna, who is Paramatma. Jivatma is also known as (part of) tatastha-sakti, marginal energy. Which, in simple words means, has to choose where to be – in antaranga or bahiranga sakti.
Somewhere, I cannot cite where (CC?), it is said that Krsna expands with the desire to enjoy. In this context the expanding means not only visnu-tattva but also jiva-tattva. In other words, Krsna expands in both visnu and jiva tattva to enjoy (more).
Jiva has the qualities that Krsna has, but not so ample. The example is given of the ocean and drop of ocean. Drop has same qualities like the ocean, but in minute form/size.
Because Krsna is independent, jiva is also independent, but only to some degree. Krsna does not interfere with jiva's independence. If Krsna would do that , it will mean that jiva is like a robot, which is not.
Jiva, somehow or other, leaves Krsna's service, with the desire to enjoy (apart from Krsna). Krsna gives him place to exercise that plan of enjoyment. That place is the material world, which He himself says is full of misery. Simply put, you can go on with your desire to enjoy in the place of suffering.
When jiva leaves Krsna, Krsna gives him suffering*, even though Krsna is omnipotent and could give jiva enjoyment, and from time to time send a note about Him (the beauty in and of the spiritual world).
*HpS - Here we would say that Krsna gives him suffering and happiness. Turning away from Krsna we do not actually "suffer", we kind of like cease to exist. Like becoming autistic. Then Krsna creates this place of relative happiness. Two hours of reflected suffering gets you two hours of reflected happiness.
Now, it looks like Krsna does and thinks in this way:” He is leaving me, so he will (have to) suffer”. Does this not seem like Krsna is jealous and not fair? He creates a jiva for His enjoyment, jiva leaves Him, He gives jiva suffering (actually a world were to act, which by nature is full of misery). Well, Krsna may be fair, but it does not look really like he is full of love. It looks more like he is egoistic.
HpS - Kids want to imitate adults. Have you seen this?? It is such a deep, deep desire. So adults give them some facility. From Krsna's point of view it is all Anananda. So it must also all be Ananda for us when we again have that point of view, "Wasn't it funny bieng in the material world!", but in Maya (50%, 75%... ) we see it differently! If there were no conditioned sould who would we preach too!
In BG Preface Srila Prabhupada says that Krsna demands service from jiva. *
HpS - We remember him saying that Krsna Demands our service and Wants our service. Not a duality.
Krsna could make a world where every jiva could enjoy (without suffering). I do not now how that can be made, but He is God, the omnipotent one. And then in that world, the jiva could be given a memo or some information about Krsna and all nice pastimes that are going on in relation with Krsna. In this way jiva could re-think about it all.
HpS - Phil Ochs - "And beneath the greatest love is a hurricane of hate, and the night is the shadow of the dawn". We are not Krsna. We cannot be independent enjoyers. If Krsna created that, he would change us. He would "create" something new. We would be Svamsa? <img alt="smiley" height="23" src="http://hps.monkeywarrior.com/sites/all/libraries/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.png" title="smiley" width="23" />
So yes, you sometimes say that Krsna is a very jealous person.
HpS - He wants all of your love!
OK, He is God and He can put demands.
HpS - But God means that He is the most renounced. He doesn't demand anything, no?
But, then let's admit that and talk directly in that way**. No need of talking about love, exchange, etc. He is God and can do whatever He likes. Whoever leaves Him will suffer by His command and will be fine only if comes back to Him with the attitude of service. If it is ONLY like this, then let's be clear and say it now and forever. It may look harsh but it is the truth (if the situation is really like that). We may not need so many other usage of words to explain this principle. Of course, there can be many discourses how to go back, but about this situation that it is His program if jiva does not want to serve Him, jiva has to suffer, there is no need to talk more. No need to talk about affectionate dealings, etc. Where is there affection if one who can make everything, makes one who does not think like Him, suffer?
HpS - Same argument as before, no? If God is all powerful, can He create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift. Our professor of Mathematics at University of California once stopped the class and did a whole discussion of this. He said, that this is a whole class of logical fallacies. It is not just the God one, there is also the one about the Barber of Seville. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox
You have defined God as all powerful, so the question is can create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it. The answer logically has to be yes. He can do anything. The problem is that we are redefining God, the Jiva, in the middle of the statement.
He made us dependent, toothless suckers. So, that is our world. He cannot act like Balarama. He has to be God. He cannot break the rules, but He IS Balarama. He IS the Jiva.
While jiva is with Krsna in spiritual world, he and situation is sat cid ananda (eternally knowledge and bliss). Why would a person who is fully happy, not just happy but blissful, want to leave that situation?
HpS - ASA - This is the Drug Addict logic, no? We are like heroin addicts. We are experiencing so much pleasure we can't leave. O.K. If we are controled by pleasure or pain, in either case we don't have free will. We can go into the Bahir anga Shakti when we want to. Why? That question has no meaning, just like Krsna is Sarva karana karanam.. He is the cause of all of His acts. Nothing forces Him.
So we have little ability to do what we want. Not for pleasure or pain, but because WE CHOSE to do it. No other reason.
THIS SEEMS TO BE THE ESSENCE OF ALL OF THIS FOR most devotees: BG 4.10 purport, "...When they are informed that spiritual life is also individual and personal, they become afraid of becoming persons again,...", when we actually realize what spiritual life is then we are afraid of our own responsibility. We want to be FORCED to be happy. We want to be happy, not that Krsna is happy. We want to be happy.
Fortunately Krsna's foremost potency (Prayers by the Personfied Vedas) is his mercy on reclaiming the fallen souls, so in the end Radha is more tricky that Durga, and even though we don't want to get out of Maya, Radha will find some way to trick us back into serving Krsna, but it is a very subtle thing, the White Witch fighting with the Black Witch. We can help.
In those moments when I felt really happy, thrilled, I did not want that moment to stop. And if it stops , I want it again. So, if a person jiva is blissful, why would want to leave that position? Why would even think of anything else?
HpS - You did. Now you can think about going back. You are God (in your little (but real) world). So, Krsna knows that you are making a chocolate cake for Radharani's birthday party because you WANT to. Not because He is rewarding you. He knows that you are discovering newer and newer aspects of your character, pushing your group on more and more. It is like flying in the sky and never coming down for fuel. How to do that??
Other point for discussion is that jiva was not with Krsna. At least, not in a manner described above – eternal, full of knowledge and blissful with Krsna in His pastimes. Wherever he was (Brahmajyoti, or whatever place on the other side of Viraja) it may be defined as being with Krsna, but that is not fully as being with Krsna in His pastimes. Or it was not at all with Krsna? Again, jiva decided to not be with Krsna. So, why jiva needs to suffer. He choose material world, without having experience of being with Krsna, why should he suffer? It appears not fair.
That would, kind of, disprove words of Srila Prabhupada where he directly says that we were with Krsna in His pastimes. And that opens another topic which we will leave for later. <img alt="smiley" height="28" src="file:///C:\Users\HHHANU~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png" width="28" />
Karma is a system to rectify the fallen jiva. It is a universal law system. It is very difficult to understand it. Principle can be understood, but details of who-gets-what by their actions is difficult to know. There are guidelines, but everyone is performing many actions all the time, so it all mixes up.
Idea is that jiva suffers so much and then wants to stop that suffering. A point here is that, generally talking, nobody knows why is there suffering (i.e. what is the cause of suffering). There is some vague idea. But if a person will know that at this moment (or these moments) I am suffering because I did this and that, that would act much better as a way to improve the consciousness. Example: person A kicks person B. Person B has broken nose and 3 teeth. (Somehow, no matter how and in which way, that is a detail) person A suffers the same consequences and KNOWS why that is happening.
Now the situation for the conditioned jiva is like this. Person A does something painful to someone. Goes with the life, forgets everything and then suffers without knowing why really suffering is happening.
HpS - In his heart he knows. Ask Carl Jung. The education is deep. Sub-conscious
Then there is a point about babies and small children. Let us say children up to 5 years old. When they suffer (get beaten heavily, sexually molested and who knows what horrible things), what teaching are they going to get from that? What a 3 year old person gets by being sexually abused? What is there to learn for that person? That child is not developed to understand, generally speaking.
HpS - Same point. Any study of psychology like Jung or even to some degree, Freud, and you will see that animals are only conscious of their sense objects and little bit their senses and maybe little bit more. So they are getting knocks and rewards like children their whole lives, but there is a change in their Bhava, Buddhi, by that. It is a subconscious change in our present awareness, but at heart we know what is happening. Of course, we may want to pretend, "Oh, I don't deserve this! This proves there is no God. Ha! Ha! Now I can enjoy raping beautiful women and eating people! Ha! Ha!"
It looks that it is easy to leave Krsna. Srila Prabhupada somewhere says that at the moment the person does not want to be with Krsna, BLOOP, he is in material world. After that, it looks it is difficult to go back. It is even difficult to have some strong realization, like being fully certain that what I experienced is really Krsna. It can be to see, hear, taste , feel Him. Like, when you eat, at one point there is fullness of stomach and satisfaction. Nobody needs to tell you if and how I am full.
HpS - Maybe we bloop from Goloka to Mathura then go back. Or any level of descent and then go back up.
This text is not to challenge Krsna, but a contemplation on the sambandha and hopeful re-connection, with Him.
I could write more on the topic but will stop so that the text does not become too long.
HpS - It is already really long, but it is nice! If anybody has any questions about this I will tell them to ask you. Ha! Ha! Ha!
This text is imperfectly composed. It was edited more then few times. Still, it is my hope that main points/questions are showed:
- Jiva was with Krsna in everlasting fully knowledgeable joyful times. Why jiva wanted to leave that place and these joyful times? To add to the mystery that jiva had much more knowledge than in material world, meaning, for example, could know that there is no fun without Krsna.
- But somehow or other, jiva left Krsna. And Krsna gives jiva suffering. If this proposition if right, it gives a view of Krsna as being kind of egocentric.
* BG Preface: Instead of satisfying his own personal material senses, he has to satisfy the senses of the Lord. That is the highest perfection of life. The Lord wants this, and He demands it.
HpS - Yes, He wants this, (Please come play with Me!), and He demands it (Grrrr!)
** Sometimes we say it like that, explain the situation in this way but more than often there is a description of mutual love and similar phrases.
Thank you.
Your servant Namacarya das
HpS - Jaya! We just realize that Krsna is always there ready to help. We just have to call, "Help!", then He helps. Then we get in a better position to remember Him more. It is a gradual process. Some folks are faster learners than others.
Are the comments we gave useful? I think we covered a lot. There are more things, but some of them get more esoteric.
