Dear Hanumat Presaka Swami Maharaj,
Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada!
It was ecstatic to have your association last weekend, I appreciate your kindness and blessings. I've heard for low class persons, mercy comes in the form of danda, and so I was grateful to receive your danda upon my thick skull. I actually chanted fairly decent rounds the next morning, so thank you very much!
My apologies for my ill-conceived question on Sunday. My inquiry about cause and effect may be more intelligible in context. The new legislation on gay marriage has precipitated multifarious discussions which have led me into some perplexity about some of the principles involved here. For preaching, I'd appreciate some clarification.
My question is: if illicit sex is allowed for 1st initiated straight couples who are married (I.e. outside of procreation, which seems to be broadly accepted within ISKCON today), why is it so strongly condemned for gay couples?
ASA - Jaya. I don't remember any bad question. ISKCON has become very broad, but as soon as Srila Prabhupada established an ISKCON Life Member program is became broader than before, no? Life Members don't have to follow the four principles, but they are still member so of ISKCON. Of course, there is no guarantee you can take your membership priveleges to the next life time.
So, for initiated devotees the standard is always the same. There was a GBC clarification of this. Honestly I think that some of our ISKCON gurus may be approving as you say, but as far as I know they are in great illusion and we hope Krsna enlighten's them soon.
On the other hand, if we prohibit gay couples from having some sort of "marriage", or (at least 1st) initiation, on the basis of illicit sex, then why do we allow straight couples who are having illicit sex to be married and/or initiated? (I understand that in Vedic times sometimes sudras or outcastes would copulate outside of marriage etc, but they were also typically not given initiation.)
Gays argue that although procreation is the function of intercourse, (and even a sufficient criterion for marriage), it is not a necessary criterion due to the Problem of Induction. They would argue that, because there is no essential, metaphysical principle of marriage, but only diverse instances in various cultures, marriage is therefore a social construct. Are we forced to argue against this on the basis of deduction from scripture only? And if so, why must we justify our definition of marriage according to empirical (inductive) criteria such as procreation?
HpS - What is marriage? Do dogs get "married" for life? Some do. I would say that the definition of marriage is quite clear in P'paada's books and a fair amount of flexibility. Look at SB 1.17.38 and get back to us.
Crazy pleasure. Sense gratification. Most intense bad Karma. Every bit of pleasure you or your partners experience will come back to you as a corresponding amount of pain, no?
Aside from that, I was wondering what steps I may take to proceed in taking shelter of your holiness? I have read your guru tattva paper a few times already, and compared it with H.G. Ravindra Svarupa prabhu's Founder Acarya book. It made sense, although I would like to reread it. Unfortunately I'm finding a lot of dead links in your archives lately, and I can't open the guru tattva file.
Do you have any instructions or questions for me at this stage? Otherwise, my temple authorities are Svavasa Prabhu and Brghupati Prabhu mainly. H.G. Mukunda Datta prabhu has been my primary shiksa guru so far, and Vaisesika prabhu and Badrinarayan Swami also took my part in trying to convince Mukunda Datta prabhu to accept me. Feel free to contact any of them if you wish. I can privately send their contacts if required. I wish you safe travels.
Your aspiring servant,
Bhakta Eric
HpS - ASA[UG))) --- We just tried the http://jayarama.us/kd/guru-tattva.txt link and it opened O.K? Please tell us if you have any problems. We think our GT matched the Disciple Course and Rabindra's article fine. We just made it simple and based it on NOI mostly.
If Mukunda Ji would like to make a comment on the GT file that would be nice, but with a Temple President's recommendation I think you can be an official Refugee and then we stay in touch for six months refining the ideas and then we act as diksa guru under Srila Prabhupada's authority. Our Parampara is mostly Siksa, no??? Everyone had a Diksa guru though.
Koi Prasna Hai??